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Here are the facts. Here's how our tax dollars are used to bankrupt the Nation. Here's why we must kick obama and his minions to the curb in 2012. Vote your wallet in 2012 and elect as many conservatives as possible. Apathy will just exacerbate our problem and make us look and act like Greece that much sooner.




There was a time and place for unions, but like many things unions have changed.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S844k_Gi ... L6zsHroiM=

Yeah,
Kick the unions to the street and work for peanuts while the fat cats line their pockets. Nope, Scott Walker will be in the street soon!

Supe,

Care to disagree with the numbers cited? Or the position that the unions are nothing more than the biggest political contributor to the liberal/socialist agenda? Why not stay on point instead of using a liberal deflection? But to feed your fire-

Walker will save Wisconsin if he survives. Union dollars and thugs will make that a challenge. But for the majority of the citizens of that State, he is a gift from above. We need more like him in office and fewer like obama.

Sandfan,
For me Unions represent getting a decent wage, when we had a larger percentage of Union members our economy was so much better giving the middle class more buying power.
Your idea is you make all the cash and everyone else make peanuts, Na I don't like the fat cats having all the cash and crumbs for everyone else.

Sandfan,
I think you are a bright individual me I'm just a donkey, you and the rest here will win the battle of words but in the end the battle will be won by the people who want to work and make a decent living.

Ha you know the other term used for a donkey dont you, and Sandfan did you expect anything less than a liberal deflection from a liberal......he is just like his President......they both avoid the facts and deflect the truth because they cant dispute it.

I don't have to dispute or explain anything to you NUT, you people are frustrated because you can't get your way....get use to it!

Get what way, you mean have a President that actually tries to improve instead of dismantel the country. Its people like you, who will regret what you wish for when "your" President destroys this Country even more than he has already, you wont be exempt from the damage, you just too impaired mentally to realize that

I think you have Paranoia Nut

Its not paranoia if it actually happens, and obama is doing what I said. What has he done to improve things ...... NADA......he was already caught selling us out to the Russians if he gets re-elected......god only knows what other promises have been made that were'nt captured on tape.......yup he is one hell of a President..........I know its was Bush that made him sell out to the Russians.......we have a President who is ashamed of the Country he represents........dipute any of it Barak Jr. Uh I mean Supe

NUT, Obama PROMISED the leader of one of the most evil regimes on earth that once he got elected he would have more flexibility to give the Russians what they want. How did the Russian leader react? I UNDERSTAND YOU. He knows PRECISELY what this lying traitor meant. But of course this was nothing to the morons that support him. It's all good.

Supe,

I don't think it is impossible or even unlikely that a laborer can earn a "decent wage" without union representation. That is demonstrated daily in any right to work state. Or do you think all those employed in right to work states are one step from the bread line? No doubt a decent wage is an important part of an equation.

What is even more important is that the company that pays that decent wage generates an acceptable profit and can be competitive long term in the global market place. For if that does not occur the decent wage all to quickly evolves into a shuttered plant, unemployment compensation and a further drain of our tax dollars. I believe you live in Pittsburgh and one does not have to look beyond the steel industry to see the result of union activity. By the way I worked for 59 days each summer for J&L or US Steel. Never got to the 60th day cause that would have put me in the union and breached the agreement they had with the firms.

As you may recall I have also had a fairly broad experience with the UAW in my prior life. I saw the wonders of a union work force up close and personal. Those union workers were paid, in my view never earned, more than a decent wage. The result was abject failure and bankruptcy. Not all the fault of the union but I assure you they are one of if not the major contributors to the failures. As a further negative they sure did give obama the leverage to screw the bond holders at GM and expose billions of tax dollars to the risks that GM and Chrysler present. If you own any GM stock you have a firm understanding and appreciation of that reality.

You are right in that I expected to earn and did earn more money than most, but not all, people represented by a union. I have no doubt that, in some cases, the heads of some of those unions earned more than me. I guess, as a union supporter, you feel they earned that through their efforts. My suggestion is if that were correct the number of union jobs in this Nation would have been on the rise instead of decline over the past few decades. I believe the numbers do not lie and unions are failing this Nation and eroding our ability to compete just like obama.

I pray that WI and OH follow IN and fully implement right to work status for their residents. If we are to compete as a Nation it is the right to work state that will lead the way. Ending public and private sector unionization and the outright vote buying for the liberals is an essential part of the recovery of our Nation. Unless one is blinded by the teleprompter skills of obama, that should become more obvious with each passing week of his term.

Even a paranoid person can be right. Nut's not paranoid. This government has earned our mistrust. Everything that has been said about Obama that I've seen is true. Did you not see him promise the Russians to reduce our defenses if re-elected?

He was asking for patience and restraint from the Russians. Basically, asking them not to stir the pot before the election. Otherwise, if Russia gets beligerant with us before the election, we'll see just how impotent this leader of the "free" world is and he may lose the election. If that happens, the U.S. may have a president that takes national security seriously and create problems for the Russian agenda.

"Fat cat", "paranoia", "working for peanuts", " in the end the battle will be won by the people who want to work and make a decent living."

So many class warfare cliches in successive posts. You must've had some of that "ism" Krunch was talking about.

So in your eyes, since many of us are not part of a union, you think that we are "fat cats" that don't work for a living?
Fat cat generally doesn't apply to most of us non-union folk. We fail, we get fired. We have to always try harder because of a thing called competition.

To me, working without a union means self-reliance and unlimited potential. What is a person's career growth potential while in a union? I'd think management opportunities and entrepeneurial enterprises are discouraged.
It sounds like a cage where they keep someone safe and paid enough to live comfortably. But you're career is limited to the boundaries of the union. How much of a paycheck typically goes to union dues? God only asked for 10%.

I look at not being part of a union as freedom. Freedom to grow. Freedom to explore. Freedom to bust my @$$ to get a job done better than expected and not worrying about breaking some union rules while doing it. I take personal responsibility when I fail, learn from it and move on. This "fat cat", came from financially challenged parents. The youngest of a large family. I worked up to three jobs at a time while going to college. I busted my @$$ at whatever job I worked (lawn service, restaurants, cleaning offices, eventually my professional career). I earned what I have. I never felt entitled to it, or that some "fat cats" owed me something because they had more. I feel humbled when I get a raise because I love what I do. It wouldn't be the same and I wouldn't feel the same sense of accomplishment if I thought that I owed it to a union.

I can guarantee that my professional life would have been intolerable had I chosen the safer domesticated/caged life.

I am where I am because of hard work, risk-taking, self-reliance, and most importantly God's graces.

As a union member most of my life's work I worked very hard too and never got any handouts. I worked both sides of the fence and can tell you through my experiences that to label union workers lazy and unproductive is wrong, I seen that in non-union work places too. Not all union worker should be put in one basket or non-union as well, there are unproductive employees in both but not all.
The union I belonged to was a good one and when a job was posted you didn't get the job based on seniority alone you had to have the ability as well. I worked every shift under the sun crazy hours, Sundays, Holidays too but never complained as I made a decent living and EARNED every cent of it.
My last 12 years in the work force was in a non-union facility so I know from experience both sides of the fence and can tell you there are unproductive employees in non-union places too just ask Bill of Hanover.
We talk so much about unions but it's ok for CEO's of failing companies to walk away with golden parachutes, stock, and highly compensated but no accountability, how about them.....the fat cats.
What Sanfan stated I can understand about the Mills closing down but it wasn't all because of the union other factors were involved too like modernization of plants.
As we speak now China with it's expanding economy will experience the same things we did. Their workers will want decent wages and working conditions too and the pendelum will swing back the other way.
Companies who outsorced their work overseas did it because we don't have an even playing field with our counterparts. There was a time when it was said the American worker must be more productive especially in the global economy well we got more productive and have the hardest working force in the world but that wasn't enough.
These companies who have a work force overseas pay much less, no safety rules to contend with and regulations so there is the reason they outsourced.
All we need is an even playing field and the American worker will dominate any foreign worker in the same field, as I said it will come to pass when China experiences the same things we did.
Be competitive shouldn't mean making less money or working in dangerous conditions. rather having an even playing field then we can talk.
If you made a good life for yourself Vitriol I commend you for your efforts as anyone else here but don't label me a person who waits for handouts I too worked very hard to attain what I have and an ability to retire.

An even playing field is hard to imagine for the US since we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. We have to thank your pal obama for that "advantage". The same holds true for the all too numerous regulations obama's epa have imposed on industries operating in the US. That's another "advantage" that creates a competitive disadvantage and restricts growth. Lastly your boy has made profit a four letter word. Just like any socialist or marxist before him.

This economy and life in America for all, not just those fat cats you and obama love to hate, will improve when obama and his idea of how to run the Nation is dumped and leaders with some common and business sense take over.

By the way Supe, my last position involved operations around the globe. Basically that meant contact 24/7 with personnel since the time zones stretched through Europe, Japan and China. Holidays in the US were pretty meaningless since they did not match up with those in other Nations. I had customer contact responsibility, aiding my sales and marketing team, most every weekend day I was in the Country. The effort I had to make was not manual but I suggest phone calls, meetings and plane trips on a 24/7 schedule take a heavy toll on one's body. And certainly impacts family life. It takes a special wife to withstand those pressures as well as a child that has to grow up faster than normal.

Those responsibilities are typical of a fat cat and should not be discounted until you walk a mile in those shoes. I have experience on the flip side working in the blast furnace departments of the steel mills in Pittsburgh. I only walked in those shoes for 4 summers but knew it was not for me long term. I've never worked for a Director, VP, President or CEO that did not earn his compensation package. I sure did see a number of union folks along the way who never understood accountability, profit motivation or commitment to a common goal or team. And were paid way too much for what they contributed.

sandfan, good post but your wasting your time. Fatcats and terms like that are simplistic ways to label people used by union activists. Like scab is only a word to describe someone working when a union is on strike. Using cliches takes no thought and no actual buy in. You simply parrot what you're taught. No one with a union mentality believes CEOs or anyone that makes more money than them ever really works for anything.

The good news is you see more and more plants being built in right to work states. More and more international companies locating there. They are fleeing the states like ours for places where they can provide jobs and benefits to people and still not have to worry about an unfair work place dominated by unions.

Not to say unions don't exist in right to work states because they do. They are different from the unions in non right to work states. They more closely work with management to provide jobs.

Unions are dying in America. Except in the federal and state government sector. I have a deep seated belief that soon the people in America will wake up to the threat posed by anti-american unions. Not quite there yet but it's coming.

If you made a good life for yourself Vitriol I commend you for your efforts as anyone else here but don't label me a person who waits for handouts I too worked very hard to attain what I have and an ability to retire.


My post pointed out that to be part of a union I would have to trade in certain freedoms for safety/security. That's unacceptable to me.
- Where in my post did I label you or anyone as waiting for handouts?

Here's a few questions that still aren't answered:

- What is a person's career growth potential while in a union?
- How much of a paycheck typically goes to union dues?

Sandfan,
Re-read my post about CEO's! I didn't say all CEO's. What I said was CEO's of failing companies should be accountable and shouldn't exit with a golden parachute and tons of cash when the company failed under his watch.
Anyone with common sense will agree with me that it is wrong for a CEO of a failing company to walk away with the cash while his employees and company suffered the consequenses of his decisions that led to failure.
I don't begruge anyone who earns big time money for their efforts please try to understand that, but what I don't like is fat cats taking in the cash while everyone else suffers. Accountability shouldn't be placed on just union workers it should be accross the board in any business or work someone may do.
As I stated I worked in both and through my experience I seen the deadwood in both and I seen the great workers as well, but to put every union in the same basket that they are the reason for our woe's is very questionable in my mind and quite frankly for a smart guy like you makes me wonder.
Give the American workforce an even playing field and we will dominate the world with our workforce, but that's not the case right now.
You talk about regulations that companies are strapped with like OSHA, well we need safety in the work force Sandfan, unless you think workers should die just trying to earn a living thats complete BS.
You and everyone else here Sandfan can win the dialog opinions with me, I don't articulate my words as well as some here and admit it however it's not about me and my opinion rather whats good for our citizens in general.
People like to attack unions but fail to assume any other segment of the working class is also a problem and our gridlock congress.
You and everyone else here think I love and support Obama, that's not entirely true, our economy hasn't improved under his watch and he will have to be accountable for that, however my only other recourse is to vote him out but the choices I have don't look to be any better. I don't believe in Paul Ryans agenda and the goof from Virginia so they will have their input if Mitt is elected which would concern me.
Romney may be able to do some things as he was a business man to improve our present state but my guess is people like Ryan and the rest will just make it worse than now with their proposals and Mitt will have to listen to them.
You and everyone here have me pegged wrong I actually believe in some of your thoughts but not all of them, and when you say unions are our partner to failure I disagree.
I have a right to express my opinion as you do, I wouldn't care much if I'm wrong if our country could get back on its' feet but common sense rules over the highly intelligent in my mind and common sense tells me no matter who is elected it won't change anything when congress fails to act in the best interests of all not just the few.

Supe,

You know I've come to understand where you are coming from. We're cool.

One thing that in our various conversations on this issue is your experience working your career as a rank and file member is not the same experience we are having. Where as you view it as a form of security, and a stable, livable source of income, we tend to look at it is a cost of operation that makes everything more expensive and could be better done without.

Whether you are in a union or not has no bearing on your ability to earn a safe secure income. At the end of the day what is going to get you a decent wage and security is the marketability, or relative value to a potential employer of your job skills, and your willingness to sell them at the best available price. When you look at the decline in union membership over the past decades, it's pretty obvious that there is no real protection, security job wise, and or income.

Take care Bud!